Can we at least talk about it? Page 1116

TRANSCRIPT IPOLA: It was an oath I had hoped never to need to fulfill, but the choices of the Urtts have forced it on me. UISSAN: You still intend that this is the end of your war now?  To annihilate the Urtt people? IPOLA: I can see no other way.  We let them in peace for twenty years, and all they did with the time was to arm and grow stronger and more vicious.  And now, with the return of Shuach’s power and the dragons, their own intent is very clear. IPOLA: They mean to eradicate our nation and enslave all of us.  Every human. Every human child, every human female everywhere on Teria.   If we defeat them as before, leave them on their side of the river as before, then in twenty years again or thirty or forty they will rise again and threaten us as they do now.   I wish I was clever enough or good enough to think of another solution, but I can’t. UISSAN: I see.  I will go to my people and see what our own wisdom can offer. But know that there are many who look at this solution of yours with horror. That the brutality and coldness of it is not something that they can support with all their own cha, regardless of its seeming necessity.  They will say that the Erogenians of today are not as different from their ancient ancestors as they wish to appear. IPOLA: I understand.  Tell them this for me:  If, in their wisdom, they can offer a better solution that does not sacrifice the future of my people, I will listen with open ears and heart. Tell them that Ipola says that the word of the Nassim, especially in this, carries special weight for me, even in the face of the oath of my youth.

27 thoughts on “Can we at least talk about it? Page 1116

  1. I can see why Ipola would make such an oath, and every point she has made has been accurate. However, I think the solution that doesn’t sacrifice the future of the Erogenians, the Kivalians, and the Draconians is already in the world…and his name is Mentl.

    1. But what will he do? That is the question.

  2. Now that is a queen.

    Also, I think she and my milSF protagonist, General Ia (a massive precognitive), would understand each other. After 200 years of blockading the Salik race after the end of the first Salik war (aliens who believed in galactic conquest & lunch…especially sentient lunch that was still kicking and screaming while being eaten one bite at a time), Ia could literally see no future in which the rest of the galaxy would survive if the Salik were allowed to live…so to put an end to the second Salik war, she arranged to have them wiped out by a plague (that they themselves had technically created), and then torched their worlds so that the plague could not be spread.

    1. “After 200 years of blockading the Salik race after the end of the first Salik war (aliens who believed in galactic conquest & lunch…especially sentient lunch that was still kicking and screaming while being eaten one bite at a time)”

      Hard to have any compassion for the Salik, then.

  3. One option would be something along what was done with the actual Nazis. Short form, first, win the war, then eliminate the worst, and reeducate the rest.

    1. And don’t forget to let some escape to South America, one might need their help in quashing leftist uprisings.

  4. So, ….a way may be open. It may be kinder, or it may be yet more painful. I remember in one of Kim Stanley Robinson’s stories a highly ambiguous character once said something like “I will only change a person’s brain if I have to. If I can, I will be kinder, and kill it.” Since all the Urr lines of genetic manipulation by the Old Erogenians are from the Erogenian’s own line, there is a hope of commonality. But that commonality is with a line that gave their world, …wellll, ….the old Erogenians.

    “They will say that the Erogenians of today are not as different from their ancient ancestors as they wish to appear.”

    The real problem in this storyline is that this is quite true, because Ipola’s people are not as different from the Old Erogenians as they would like to *be*! Behavior is a *lot* more biologically determined than the 20th Century academics, or many 21st Century ones, wanted us to believe. The great key is the current data seems to indicate that the sort of behaviors represented by the Urr-Tanach, “the Urrts”, are not descended through “races”, but through *families*. Kor Lachnis will know this, and seek out traitor families within the tribes of Erogenia, through the “Maker’s” ability to read the inmost workings of people. Still, there may be those family lines within the Urrts that can be saved as well.

    1. “Still, there may be those family lines within the Urrts that can be saved as well.”

      Well, let us hope that Mentl can make that reading of the Urrts’ inmost workings.

  5. When someone sees me and mine as nothing but fuckfood, I have NO qualms with swearing to their genocide. Period. Full stop. End of story.

    1. I see your point, sibling.

      Still, can one blame Ipola and Uissan for looking for a gentler solution?

      1. I blame anyone who expects me to risk me and mine being feces.

  6. well said

  7. I wonder if the Nassim can truly offer a different solution that will have the power to heal old wounds and remove hatred. Perhaps they can learn to live together again in time.

  8. I think I might have a solution that would not require Ipola to break her solemn oath, yet allow some Urrt to be spared:

    (1) Ipola could retire, either giving up her position as Queen of the Moon Tribe, ruler of all the tribes of Erogenia, or both. If Ipola was no longer in a position of authority to carry out her oath… She would not be breaking that oath if the decision to carry it out was no longer her choice. She has already revealed in an earlier chapter that she is making Tula her heir, not Zona. (Which makes sense, considering how level-headed, knowledgeable and intelligent Tula clearly is.) Making Tula the next Queen of the Moon tribe is no problem. However, I suspect making Tula the leader of the tribes of Erogenia may not be as easy as it sounds. The tribes’ leaders (with the exception of the Fire tribe?) vowed to follow Ipola, not Tula. Perhaps there is a rule or clause to allow for succession? Or would Tula have to earn the respect of other tribes or otherwise renegotiate for that position? If this course of action is plausible, I suspect Ipola would or should wait until after the war with the Urrts is over (or nearly over) before transitioning leadership to Tula.
    (2) War is war. The Erogenians and Urrts will kill each other. Depending on how the war goes for Erogenians, they will likely end up killing most adult Urrts, likely leaving the younglings as survivors. At the least, most of their warriors will die in battle. And I have a suspicion that, when things get desperate, that evil ancient Erogenian (forgot his name) will make the ultimatum that all the able-bodied have a choice: Fight for me, or die here and now. After the war is over, the Erogenians could hand over the younglings (and, perhaps, a few surviving adults) to the Nassim (and, perhaps, some of them to Snake tribe), to be raised differently – raised with respect for all life and all peoples.
    (3) The above sounds too optimistic even to me. Hatred and bigotry isn’t so easily overcome. Heck, it sounds like it took the Nassim nearly 3000 years before they would be willing to let the past be the past and consider approaching the Erogenians again. Indeed, the Urr-Nasim were the mild-mannered house servants, while the Urr-Natik were the ones born and bred as warriors, likely with a genetic predisposition (genetically-engineered) for anger and violence. Perhaps they could somehow isolate the surviving Urrts in another dimension? Or, perhaps they could plead with the Earth, Moon and Sun to help the survivors overcome their past and predilection towards violence and their taste for human flesh? Could they be (perhaps even physically) transformed into something new?

    1. Just a note sibling, sending the Urtts to the Snake tribe for reformation is akin (to use khms’s WWII reference) to sending nazis to Israel for same. Snake tribe are survivors of slavery at the claws of Urtts.

      Besides that, a lot of good political and social points here. About the gist of your workaround, I think it would require a public declaration by Ipola that her oath was a mistake and make the retirement a consequence of realizing that mistake. Otherwise it sounds a bit too loopholey to satisfy Erogenian reverence for honesty.

    2. “(1) Ipola could retire, either giving up her position as Queen of the Moon Tribe, ruler of all the tribes of Erogenia, or both. If Ipola was no longer in a position of authority to carry out her oath… She would not be breaking that oath if the decision to carry it out was no longer her choice.”

      Basically, she would just discard the burden on Tula’s shoulder. Ipola would not solve anything for anyone, except just for herself.

      I can perfectly see Tula brewing some serious resentment over this. And she’d be right to.

  9. bottom line
    “I very seldom compromise. I am a Capricorn.”

    Oh, that’s not true. I’m a Capricorn myself, and I’m compromised all the time.

  10. “Seeming” necessity? I really hope Uissan can come up with a better deterrent for the Urtts.

  11. And Ipola again shows why she’s a good queen.

  12. I’d like someone to record this page and to show it to Gudik, saying, “This is the standard you’ll be judged against.” If he starts crying and whimpering, I’ll pronounce him sane.

    (Of course, for balance one should show the same to Yanora and say, “This is listening.”)

  13. to prevent war, but ensure some Future for all Sides involved, I think this will be the best solution.

    All Urr-natick, the Ogres, will be put to the Sword.
    All Male Urr-tatanach, the Urtts, will be put to the Sword.
    All Urr-tatanach Mothers, will be Put to the Sword.
    All Female Urr-tatanach, that have never born children, will be allowed to live
    All Half-Urr-tatanach, Half-Human, will be allowed to Live
    All Urr-nasim, the Nassim, will be allowed to Live

    All Urr- that are allowed to live, must swear an Oath, that they will never make war, till their dying breath.
    All Urr- that are allowed to live, must join with the Sun-Tribe or Snake-Tribe.

    1. I do believe that the two girls that “Tom” is staying with are “Ogres”. I think Zona has commented that Ogre men can be good lovers. From these two points, I think it can be said that Ogres are already of two groups; those who work with the Urrts and those who do not, with the latter set possibly, likely often, being good people working toward good ends.

      I understand that all half-Urts are mule-sterile. Further, some may be True Believers, and need to be either eliminated or carefully deprogrammed. This may not be feasible in large groups.

      The Nasim are an associate society to the Sun Tribe. I would have significant reservations with FORCING them to join Erogenian society.

      It might be possible to salvage the smallest children, and raise them with at least a learned understanding of Right and Wrong. In time, it may be possible to restore their atrophied ingrained sense of Right and Wrong, although I know many humans who have fully suppressed that sense, where their own interests are in conflict.


      My proposal would be to install a modern Erogenian as “Owner of Owners”, with strict rules of behavior forced upon the rest through that, established, position of authority. From there, it may be possible to socialize the Urrts, but at least one full generation, all those who are old enough to talk, should be allowed to die off before they could be given more leash to manage their own affairs.
      In time, it may be possible to flatten the society, but such should be done on the basis of earned merit, with it clear that anyone can rise to stand just under the “Owner of Owners”. Break the slave system by transposing it into a different stratified system, but one where a person can rise through the ranks by catching the eye of a higher ranking individual.
      Surface settlements only, with instruction given by visiting Erogenians, and possibly willing Nasim. Possibly keep them moving, seasonally or annually, to make hiding, and preserving in secret, elements of their old culture harder. Maybe foster them out. Fostering can be done as a year with a seasoned Erogenian. Would-be hunters fostered to the best hunters for a year; would-be shamans fostered to established shamans for a year. Tie breaking of old habits to learning not just new habits but the skills of the trade they wish to pursue. In either case, this fostering would be a rite of passage.
      Definitely need to work some Prisoner’s Dilemma into it to help break up any conspiracies. Any such application of Prisoner’s Dilemma must be crafted in such a way that it is welcomed and celebrated, rather than despised.

  14. Where is my comment ? is the comment system broken ?

    1. I think the comments are moderated before appearing. My own comments above took, I think, more than 24 hours to appear this time. Not that I’m complaining in any way; comment moderation is a Good Thing and if it means I have to wait a little more sometimes, so be it. Usually that’s far quicker; I guess the moderator (who I assume is doing this on their own free time) couldn’t help be busy elsewhere. Here’s hoping everything’s all right for them.

      (I think the moderator is JED, but I don’t know that he is, or is the only one.)

  15. Where is my Comments ? why are they not being loaded ?

  16. San Bernardino in Atlanta

    Well, as I see it, plan for an out, prepare for the worst, and know that something is always going to go wrong.

  17. I just realized reading these pages, that none of the protagonists, including Mentl, know about the ancient evil Erogenian who has risen and taken command of the Urrts. Any solution that saves the Urrts from extermination is going to involve killing the hell out of that guy, for sure.

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